Below is the continuation of Grigory Pasko’s exclusive interview with Russian opposition leader Boris Nemtsov, who talks about the Putin-Medvedev diarchy, Gerhard Schroeder, Barack Obama, and the second trial of Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Read part 1 of the interview here.

Andrei Illarionov, appearing before the foreign affairs committee of the US House of Representatives, characterized the country as a territory that had been captured by a Corporation; when real political power in the country belongs not to one person, not to a family, not to a military junta, not to a party and not to an ethnic group, but to a corporation of special services employees. Moreover, the characterization of this corporation almost completely coincides with the classical definition of a mafia. A question: how can one fight a mafia using non-mafia methods?

The fact is that I don’t know of a single example of successfully fighting a mafia using mafia methods. I know that mafias fight with each other: narcocartels, there was such a fight that went on in Italy. As a rule, they would destroy each other or one of the groupings would have the victory. I don’t agree that you need to fight the Putinite mafia using its own means. This isn’t right. First, because the opposition doesn’t have such resources. Second, our strength – is in our convictions. And their weakness – in the absence of convictions. Their convictions – power and money. Alexander Nevsky once said «Not in strength is God, but in the truth!» Their strength – power, money, informational resources and a machine of repression. Their weakness is in the fact that they have no ideology, convictions, principles. We’ve got all that.

Our weakness is that we don’t have informational resources, special services, a machine of repression. We – are antipodes. Why do they despise us – Illarionov, Milov, Nemtsov, Kasparov – more than the communists, the Nazis? Because we’re an ideological opposition. An opposition of ideas, a spiritual opposition to Putin. He considers that Russia – is a half-finished, Asiatic country, one that hasn’t yet matured enough for democracy, that our people – are cattle. This is why he doesn’t need freedom, elections, honest courts. That’s what he considers. He’s got a deeply contemptuous attitude towards the people. By the way, there’s a paradox in this: he despises and fears the people, but the people love him. This often happens in families where there isn’t mutual love. Some love, while another allows them to love him. Although to love a power – that’s perverted. You can love children, mother, women, father… But towards power you can have an attitude of trust-distrust.

You need to go to the people with a plough and a book…

Right. That’s why we’re going to the elections to the Moscow City
Duma. Of course, this is a special operation, and not elections. But
this is a rare opportunity to appeal to the people with our slogans, to
tell them about the 300 steps to freedom. And we went to the elections
in Sochi. We understand this. This is a not-simple matter. Our
political enemy is cynical.

The Communists – children by comparison
with the Putinites, they weren’t so avaricious and cynical. They were
completely mad from the point of view of economic construction. But
nobody has ever found any party gold. Or any mansions to speak of
either. Private planes and yachts – even less so. But these fellows,
they’ve got something to lose – billions, villas…

Those who consider
that it’s easier to pick on the Putinites than on the Communists don’t
understand a thing. They’re more nimble and cunning, more adaptable to
life. If even Bush saw a cross in Putin’s soul….I, of course,
understand that Bush – is a few cards short of a full deck.

…Schroeder seemed to see something in his soul too.

Schroeder saw money there. …That is, a long, serious war lies ahead.
This is an endurance race, not a sprint. We’ve got to outlive this: we
need to have health, we need to be in good shape.

I read in your book about the secrets of longevity.

I’m healthy not because I engage in gerontology. I’ve got a political task – to outlive them.

Someone once said that in Russia, in order to attain anything,
you’ve got to live a long time…How do you deal with the problem of
questioners about how «Nemtsov has already been in power, and, this
means, he can no longer be trusted and there’s no point in voting for
him»?

I am absolutely not ashamed of what I did in the 90s. I wasn’t a bad
governor, and even my enemies admit this. And I worked honestly in the
government. It is another matter that oil then cost 8 dollars a barrel,
and it was hard to save Russia. If oil would cost 8 dollars right now,
they’d lift Putin up with a pitchfork and toss him into Butyrka
[Moscow's largest investigative isolator prison--Trans.], he’d have to
answer for his connection with Abramovich, for Beslan, Nord-Ost,
Gazprom and for the Khodorkovsky affair. The whole deal, no holds
barred…

We saved Russia back then. Yes, we weren’t lucky then with the
market situation. Plus the Soviet Union was bankrupt, we had to nurse
it out of intensive care. And nobody got out of intensive care
rosy-cheeked. I am not ashamed about that time. But it’s not really
about me. It’s about «Solidarnost» – a movement in which there are
people who have no connection whatsoever to the 90s. Kasparov, Milov,
Yashin, Davidis, Ponomarev, Bukovsky, Kara-Murza… These are those
people to whom I am gladly prepared to pass on the baton of the
struggle for democracy. In «Solidarnost» there are adult people, in the
sense of age and their fate, people who have been around, let’s put it
that way, and there are young people.

What’s happening is like in a
relay race: one passes the baton to another not instantly, but
continues to rub alongside him for a period of time. They run
concurrently in a corridor. Right now we find ourselves in this
corridor. My mission in «Solidarnost» is to pass on my experience, to
do everything so that «Solidarnost» would happen, and so that the young
would gather political weight and be able to continue our rightful
cause. My role – that’s of a mentor, maybe that sounds a bit loud. I
consider it’s a very important role. I’m proud that I and my comrades
have succeeded in creating such a movement. Despite both the skeptics
and the powers.

And now a few words about the visit of USA president Obama to
Moscow. He repeated his commitment to the values of democracy and said
that that protecting human rights – is an absolute value, not depending
on borders.

He – is the American president, moreover dark-skinned. He’s got so
many problems in his own country, as well as in the international
arena, that it would be naïve to assume he’s going to devote a lot of
time to Russia. He’s certainly not going to betray his principles, that
freedom is better than non-freedom. And this isn’t Medvedev’s words in
Krasnoyarsk. Only a democratic country could have elected him
President. Therefore, for him, democracy – is not book history. This is
- his personal fate. His personal success, and that’s important. His
attitude towards this is different from that of many others.

As concerns us. Nobody will give us deliverance, neither God nor
tsar, and certainly not Obama. His meeting with us – this is a
demonstration of the fact that he considers that Russia – this is not
only Putin and Medevedev. He understands that there is the official
power and then there are those who are not in agreement with it. He
obviously empathizes with the democrats, because he’s one himself. The
maximum that can be counted on – a strengthening of people-to-people
exchanges: between journalists, politicians, human rights advocates,
environmentalists… Such a kind of contacts under Obama are going to
intensify, because he himself is a product of non-governmental
organizations. There’s no need too count on him, meeting with Medvedev
and Putin, raising the question of Khodorkovsky, Sutyagin, Danilov, if
you were sitting [behind bars] – about you. From personal experience I
have become convinced of this: I showed him the revolution initiated by
him, Biden and McCain with respect to the Khodorkovsky case, and asked,
had his opinion on this account changed? He did not answer this
question.

His position – is such a, I would say, two-stream diplomacy:
with Putin-Medvedev he resolves tactical tasks, important this very
minute for America – the deployment of missile defense systems, arms
reduction, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Georgia.., leaving the development of
the country in parentheses, understanding that these people are
incapable of perceiving obvious things in a rational manner.
Simultaneously strengthening relations with the opposition. Politicians
have such a technology: it is much more effective to meet with people
who are neutrally inclined towards you than with your enemies. They
yell shake their fists, you trot out your energy… This looks pretty on
television. From the electoral point of view the effectiveness of such
meetings – zero. It’s very hard to persuade someone of the opposite of
what he believes in. Obama understands that speaking with Putin about
democracy is the same as me trying to convince Zyuganov to support the
SPS. Pointless. In his speech in the economics school he said that not
a single state can in the 21 century count on success if it is not
democratic and is not found under the control of society..

The role of
Obama in the history of the democratization of Russia is negligible. He
came and he went, but we’ve remained. Imagine to yourself, I show up in
the Far East and start criticizing Darkin. Darkin might even hear me
out, inasmuch as he’s a smart and crafty chap. Then I’ll leave, while
Darkin will continue to do his thing. Nothing will change going
forward. Therefore the business of democratization and getting our
country in order – this is our business, and not Obama’s. …I was
surprised, to be honest, why he didn’t start raising the question of
Khodorkovsky seriously. He answered this question for «Novaya gazeta»
rather respectably, but, by all appearances, he didn’t even raise it
before Putin and Medvedev.

By the way, is there any sense about the outcome of the Khodorkovsky case?

I’ve got not a sense, but an understanding…

…I don’t even have an understanding any more.

…I’ve been there in court two times, Misha and I spoke with each
other in the language of gestures. This is my understanding:
Khodorkovsky in jail – this is the symbol of Putin’s power. The symbol
of Yeltsin’s Russia was Yeltsin on the tank. Come on, you agree, don’t
you?

I’ll agree that standing on a tank is cooler than holding someone in jail.

Well, naturally. And one shouldn’t go confusing a divine gift with
scrambled eggs. Yeltsin – this is a historical person. He’s complex,
with all his squiggles, as he used to say. But he’s a real large-scale
historical personality – serious, deep, I would say, tragic. And Putin
- totally different story – spiteful and petty. As long as Putin
remains in power, Khodorkovsky will remain in jail.

But Putin’s going to remain in power another 15 years…

And so Khodorkovsky will remain sitting in jail. As lamentable as
this may sound. This doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t fight. For
example, when you were there, who knows where…You, of course, aren’t
Khodorkovsky, please excuse me, but for me it was perfectly obvious
that the fight for you, this is like a fight for myself. I didn’t even
know you, but I could see that you’re a decent person….Back then public
opinion had significance, back then a ruckus was raised. They were
forced to reckon with this. Now they’ve simply gotten completely
insolent and audacious. Putin is pathologically afraid of Khodorkovsky,
considers him an utterly powerful person – organized, serious,
unbreakable. Exactly all those qualities he himself is short on,
Khodorkovsky’s got in abundance.

Thanks for the meeting!

Afterword. Of course it’s hard to talk about everything at once in a
single interview. But I hope that I will have a chance to meet again
with Boris Nemtsov – perhaps the brightest opposition politician in
today’s Russia. May God grant him health and the same kind of vigor as
now. And I’d also like to wish him …caution. The recent incident with
the surveillance device planted on his car says a lot.

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